Web Standards Are Your Responsibility

1. Jeff Croft said:

Amen, Keith. A-frickin’-men.

Posted on September 6, 2005 05:47 PM | #

3. Steve Ganz said:

So true, Keith. While it’s getting better all the time, we’re still at a stage where Web standards need to be sold to the business owner and even your fellow designers and developers. And that isn’t as easy for some people as it might be for others. As a community we should definitely share ideas and continue to develop resources such as the WaSP’s Education Task Force and the W3C’s Web Accessibility Initiative. When you have the resources to back you up and you can talk about standards on both a conceptual and technical level, this stuff sells itself.

Posted on September 6, 2005 06:53 PM | #

5. Jonathan Snook said:

Hmmm, I fall under the category of, “My clients don’t care how it gets done…just do it” and with that, it does.

The exception to this rule is working with templates provided by a client. I ain’t getting paid to rework it and the client may get offended by my judicious rework of their templates.

Posted on September 6, 2005 07:22 PM | #

7. Adam Fellowes said:

Great post love it.

When changing the coding standards and practices in the business I currently work for the only people who had to know what code I was writing were my team and the developers who were developing the back end. Both groups were blown away with the simplicity of the code I was delivering, others at that time did not need to know what we were doing, as long as it was on time and within budget.

Your boss, clients etc will glaze over if you go on about web standards and the benefits, most people with the purse strings will not understand the benefits unless it’s explained in cost saving - as outlined in JZ’s book designing with web standards, try that tact if you really have to explain what and why you are doing something new.

We now have many cost savings, be it bandwidth, development time along with great flexibility which we did not have before and many of our competitors don’t have. These all impress those who did not need to know what we did initially, namely the management.

If there is one extra point to make it’s the age old saying of choose your battles wisely and don’t expect everything to change at once.

Posted on September 7, 2005 01:37 AM | #

9. Su said:

Question: This applies only to things you actually typed in yourself, right? If I’m handing a set of (valid) templates off to a client *cough* who is actively resistant1 to the idea of even asking their writers to keep their opening and closing tags the same (preferably lower-)case – You think I’m joking, don’t you? – I see a point where I just have to not care anymore.
I’ve piled on the text filters to fix smart quotes and the like, clean up URLs, correct punctuation, etc. but there are limits to what can be done without either some actual editorial/tech review before publishing(Hah!) or an AI. Also, that’s only fixing the output. The database still has all their crapped-up content in it.

1 …as in I’ve lost multiple screaming matches

Posted on September 7, 2005 03:17 AM | #

11. Faruk Ateş said:

Excellent post, Keith. Covering all aspects that matter, and sending out the message we can’t (or at least, shouldn’t) ever forget: it IS our own responsibility.

It’s also for our own benefit, just as much as the client’s. Web standards simply are better to work with. After the initial change/switch from legacy coding styles and after going through the learning curve of CSS and its infinite intricacies, web standards are just so much fun to work with because you get much better results with much less effort. Bliss!

Posted on September 7, 2005 04:46 AM | #

13. Carlos Porto said:

Keith you definately hit the head on the nail. Wanting to be devil’s advocate for a moment.

What if the “golden triangle” is scewed. Time and time again you prove to the business that its in their best interest, if not in the interm, but at least into the future, to use standards based development and they still disagree, is it still our responsibility?

Adam mentioned earlier “Choose your battles wisely and don’t expect everything to change at once.” I think its easy to say its bullshit and I have to agree that most of the time it is. But, lets not forget there are instances that the battle can’t be won.

BTW, great post Keith, these last couple of articles have been great.

Posted on September 7, 2005 08:11 AM | #

15. Chris K said:

I completely agree with this post. I have yet to come across a client that put up a fight over standards. I beleive it all comes down to how we present it. Its the old advertising mantra of ” don’t sell the features, sell the benefits of the features.” I find it hard to believe that a business would object to wanting their site to load faster, be easier to update and be more visible to search engines.

Posted on September 7, 2005 08:58 AM | #

17. Keith said:

Cody – I see what you’re saying, but I am talking to Web designers and developers with this post who have the opportunity to go with and advocate for standards but aren’t.

I’ll give you an example that addresses the very issue you talk about. At Children’s, shortly after I started working there, I had to install and get running a CMS that had been purchased before I signed on. It was expensive, inflexible and was built with no regard to standards in anyway. It was impossible to code the templates to standards, just like you mention.

However, after quite a bit of work, hacking, tinkering, yelling and cursing, I decided to push my stakeholders in a different direction. Now at this time I was only a contract Web developer, but I was able to show how a solution that embraces standards would be cheaper, more effective, etc. We ended up cutting loose this CMS and going with Movable Type for our intranet.

Was it a lot of thankless work? Hell yeah, but in the end it made my job (and practically everyone else’s job) much, much easier.

I think I understand what you’re saying and I know that sometimes you can’t win these kind of battles, but I’m also saying you’ll never win if you don’t pipe up about it. As well, I know too well the complete blindness to standards some people and companies have. I’m trying to look at this from a controlable micro level and if your reading my site as a Web professional, chances are you are someone who is at least somewhat interested in standards.

Getting those people are companies you mention to care is a whole other issue and battle.

And, as Carlos (#12) says, there are times when you need to pick your battles. I’m just trying to encourage those who are in a position to do things the right way.

Posted on September 7, 2005 09:55 AM | #

19. DaveMo said:

As the lowest level of code grunt at state government agency, I can empathize with others who find themselves stymied in advancing Web Standards in their jobs. When I’ve brought the issue up to those of greater power and influence than I, I receive either blank stares or some of the excuses Keith lists above, and while I think some of it is ignorance, a lot of that ignorance and resistance has to do with the very rigid, top-down hierarchy that exists in most government management. Because of this reality, I’ve learned that it’s pretty much a waste of time trying to evangelize and preach about Web Standards to everyone’s annoyance, so instead, I spend as much time as I can learning about Web Standards and then applying that knowledge as best I can to my agency’s websites.

For instance, I have been sneaking as much CSS as possible into my coding on our agency’s public facing site whenever possible and removing extraneous tables when I think they won’t be noticed missing or break the site, as well as putting summaries in the tables that remain and trying to slowly fix whatever I think I can get away with. I’d do more but, like I said, I’m pretty low on the hierarchy here and I’m pushing it as is. But I do what I can.

Unfortunately, most of my silent support of standards here will be a futile effort as we are being forced to convert everything over to a state-wide mandated CMS system. Our agency’s content will be reduced to basic HTML that is buried several nested tables deep in a conforming template designed to provide a “unified branding experience” for the user. Riiiight…

See for yourself.

Disappointed? Yes. Discouraged? A little. But the effort is not ultimately wasted. I have learned a great deal in the past year or so that I’ve spent learning and implementing Web Standards here. Unbeknownst to my supervisor, I’ve recently taken it upon myself to redesign our agency’s intranet site to be completely standards compliant, and when I’m done, or close to done, I’ll make a presentation to my supervisor, and if I document it well, perhaps I can use it as an example to the other coders in neighboring agencies and in our IT department. I have no idea how it will be accepted if at all, but I feel I must do this thing, and if I’m successful, perhaps by working quietly, my work will speak all the louder for the adoption of standards by my fellow coders.

Thanks again for the great forum Keith!

Posted on September 7, 2005 12:49 PM | #

21. Jeremy Fields said:

I wonder if this is how progressive architects and builders felt when they were making buildings accessible before the ADA forced everyone on the bandwagon. I’m amazed at how many government agencies and publicly funded institutions ARE legally bound to ensure that their websites are fully accessible (read: web standards) but have no clue and don’t care.

Posted on September 7, 2005 01:31 PM | #

23. Ben Buchanan said:

I agree to an extent… although as I’ve posted elsewhere (Who’s Responsible?) I think we need to rememeber that it’s not the sole responsibility of the designers/developers. There are many people in the chain who will always have responsibilities as well.

You are right to remind people that we should do it whether the client cares or not. If they don’t care, what difference does it make to them? Certainly nothing bad :)

Posted on September 8, 2005 12:21 AM | #

25. Jay-Dee said:

Excellent Post Keith.

As an employee of a small Web Development firm here in the UK, iv’e had an opportunity here that perhaps others in bigger firms may not have.

I came to this company with qualifications in HTML,Javascript,ASP,CSS and various other development tools and am now in charge of both backend development and front-end coding/design.

When I first started here, we too were a non-validating development firm, and now over time, and with a small amount of effort in persuading the management, all of our projects are standards based.

I also appreciate the hardship that can come from convincing back-end developers to adopt Web Standards, however I don’t think this is simply about front-end standards. I know many back-end developers who simply don’t follow best practices; standards based development or take the time to produce minimum code for efficiency.

When I sit in front of my computer, crack open my development tools and get to work, I’m excited and looking forward to the challenge and the outcome.

Perhaps the industry just needs a shake up and those who aren’t excited by the web could perhaps find other jobs as solicitors, bank managers or graphic designers. :-) (Just kidding).

Again, great post Keith.

I look forward to hearing how more people are promoting Web Standards in their work places.

Posted on September 8, 2005 05:23 AM | #

27. Fransjo Leihitu said:

Nice article. I really understand what you’re saying and you’re totally right. Webstandards may be hard in the beginning, but after a while it’s breeze. When I start e new project, I cannot think the old ways anymore (thinking tables). Now I just start writing and thinking in terms of divs.

I know it’s sometimes hard to convince other people (like the new-commers into this world) to writ Webstandard webpages. But I know, oneday they will see the light ;-)

Posted on September 8, 2005 12:52 PM | #

29. John said:

Isn’t it funny how many “business people” want to know what code, tags, and even application tools you are using to build the solution.

How many of those same people go to a car repair shop and want to know if the mechanic is using “Snap-on” or “MAC” tools, or what the manufacturers of the parts are, which will be used to repair their car.

DARE I SAY - Not many. Usually the ones who care will find the repair facility who they trust to use the correct parts… and the others - just want the cheapest parts…

How is it in the tech world - everyone wants to get their hands dirty? Isn’t there some way to “put up a wall of glass” with a safety notice saying “customers” are not allowed in the coding room…?

As long as the site contains the content, layout, and other structural & long term details identified in the design phase… why should they care how it does that. How a contractor provides the solution - especially server OS, HTML, CSS, server-side code, etc - shouldn’t even be a concern.

And how many want to jump in and begin changing things before the paint is already dry… calling you up “meekly” saying there is something wrong with the site… and you look and they deleted the includes for the database or other “necessary bits”…

Isn’t if funny?

Posted on September 9, 2005 08:01 AM | #

31. Kim Siever said:

I have to agree with some of the others. Every website I have produced sine converting to web standards has included web standards design. I never brought it up with any of the clients (or my bread-and-butter employer). I just did it. It looked like how they wanted it and they were happy.

I have never had anyone “View Source…” and then lambaste me for not using tables.

Posted on September 12, 2005 10:28 AM | #

33. Anonymous Coward said:

Would you do this in C:

int main(…)
{
;
  { printf(…); };
;
  { scanf(…); };
;
};

?? Probably not. Hopefully not! But just cuz most browsers *allow* tag soup is not a reason to CREATE tag soup.

My take is, validators are my “HTML compilers”. If I cant get 0 errors, the code is broken.

When was the last time you tried to deliver a java app that wouldnt compile and expect the customer to pay you? Treat (X)HTML as any other language. QED.

Posted on September 13, 2005 03:06 PM | #

35. Space said:

How about some graphic design standards? Those bullet points up there need a bit of breathing room!

Posted on September 14, 2005 05:13 PM | #

37. John said:

Not everyone has time to become an expert in so-called “Web standards,” which sometimes seems to amount to nothing more than a ridiculously complicated crafty concern of minutae-oriented designer/coder types.

Many people are trying to do work that involves publishing to web sites and haven’t heard much about the need to follow these standards in the first decade of the Web. They’ve grown accustomed to authoring for forgiving user agents and dont necessarily understand the need to learn more rigorous Web publishing rules.

Standards are fine but when they are used as politically correct busy work (e.g. convert a site that works just fine to a tableless-XHTML + CSS layout with difficulty and at expense), I call “elitist bullshit.”

My responsibility is that my site has good content, works properly, and doesn’t cause problems for people. It’s not my responsibility to validate code and fret about all the grinding details of W3C specs. I may voluntarily pay attention to these things if I have the time, but I’m not obligated.

Posted on September 23, 2005 06:57 PM | #