Django or Ruby on Rails

2. Jeff Croft said:

Oh, one more point that applies to both frameworks (and I’m stealing this directly from Rails creator David Heinemier Hannson, who said it at Snakes vs. Rubies):

You’re concerned because there don’t seem to be that many Rails or Django programmers out there. There are 5 million PHP programmers and only 5000 Ruby programmers (I’m making these numbers up, but the point is the same). But I’d ask you: how many do you need? Do you need five million, or even five thousand, programmers? No, you probably only need one. Or three. Or five.

Point is, there are plenty programmers in whatever language you choose to suit your needs. There’s no lack of people looking for jobs on the Django mailings lists. You can also post your job opening at gypsyjobs.com, which is a Django-related job board. I’m sure Rails has similar resources, I just don’t know what they are.

Posted on July 14, 2006 04:28 PM | #

4. Jeff Croft said:

Someone saved me. I’ve been seriously injured by the buzzwords on the MODx site and I fear I may not make it out alive.

Posted on July 14, 2006 04:35 PM | #

6. Frode Danielsen said:

I think I will second Jeff Crofts suggestion of taking a closer look at the languages to make a decision. How well you are able to read and understand the frameworks depends a lot on the programming languages themselves.

Regarding modxcms - why is it that the marketing pages are quite elegant in layout and visual esthetics, while the admin interface doesn’t even come close? And it took quite a while to find the demo, since I didn’t think the forum would be the obvious place for a link to a live demonstration.

Posted on July 14, 2006 05:49 PM | #

8. Walker Hamilton said:

I’ve been playing with Rails and went to RailsConf. While I was there, I made sure to attend all of the sessions on deployment. This and not “understanding” seem to be the problems with Rails.

The deployment environment is seriously lacking right now, but there are a whole bunch of reasons this is getting better (Mongrel from Zedas Shaw, Engine Yard from Ezra (something unpronounceable).

When it comes to building client applications, I’ve been using CakePHP (cakephp.org). The community’s really happy to help, the docs are great, the hosting is everywhere (who doesn’t have php installed?), and I know PHP as a language. This makes for a really nice way to produce projects quickly that remain reliable.

Posted on July 14, 2006 06:18 PM | #

10. Justin Perkins said:

I think you should watch this, then decide.

Why not try a really small project in one of the two, if you’re not hooked at that point fallback on what you’re already familiar with. Then do the same thing again, but with the other framework. I guess that may not be the most practical approach, but it sounds nice on paper.

Posted on July 14, 2006 06:28 PM | #

12. Geof Harries said:

We’ve tried, and tried, and tried to get Django installed on our production box but with no luck (it’s on a shared server). And we’re not talking script kiddies either - the guy attempting the install has serious skills in PHP, Java and C++. But to no avail.

Compare this to Ruby on Rails, which ahem, was a piece of cake, relatively. With Django, we kept running into permission problems, root access and more. So many steps to plow through.

Based on Jeff’s recommendations, I sent in a contact form to Gypsy Hosting but have heard nothing back in over a week. The list of Django-friendly hosts is shorter than short.

Again, compare this to Ruby on Rails.

I’ve got many more hosts to choose from and in plenty of cases, the framework comes pre-installed. I just need to do the neccesary deployment routines and it’s ready to go.

I want to like Django, I really do.

But when the installation is so difficult and hosting options are extremely limited, it grows less and less appealing. Time is money, and Django has wasted much of ours.

This is not a good place to be if you want to compare Django against, yes dare I say it, a more mature framework like Ruby on Rails.

Posted on July 14, 2006 09:39 PM | #

14. Ron Stephens said:

If you choose Django, you wont be sorry. Python is so easy to use, and is growing in popularity all the time. Django is also a proven solution that scales really well. You might also want to check out this http://wiki.rubyonrails.com/rails/pages/Framework+Performance

Posted on July 14, 2006 09:49 PM | #

16. Ron Stephens said:

Just two more things:

1. You might want to look a this also:

Django and rails comparison

2. If you are using Windows, don’t even consider Rails. Ruby on Rails creator and uberGeek David Heinemeier Hansson is a fanatic anti-Windows proselytizer. he is anot about to put any energy into making Rails better for Windows users, who he seesm to think are just plain dumb.

Posted on July 15, 2006 12:19 AM | #

18. Rimantas said:

Uhm. What’s wrong with Rails on Windows?
Ok, I don’t run production on Windows, but for development it is OK (and Radrails is good).
Sure, I still prefer OS X and Textmate ;)

Posted on July 15, 2006 04:17 AM | #

20. Brian Warren said:

Along the lines of the “find a programmer and let him/her decide”, make sure one of your most valued qualities in this programmer is the ability to communicate with you effectively. He (or she) needs to have a teaching personality. Sure, he’s gotta be a great programmer, but he also needs to be able to clue you in on how he works and how he thinks. He doesn’t need to teach you how to program, but he needs to be able to help you “get it”.

There are great programmers who have taught me a lot over the years and they are the people I go to to help me understand stuff. There are others who are fantastic programmers but I never understand what they’re saying. Consequently, they are harder for me to trust and I’m less likely to bring them in on a project.

Posted on July 15, 2006 09:16 AM | #

22. Ron Stephens said:

Hello Justin,

I just want to say that, if I were a Windows user, I most certainly would not choose to use a web frameworks created by an outspoken anti-Windows person. DHH is the prime mover behind Rails, it is his baby, he created it, he is the spokesperson, without him Rails would not be the huge successful phenomenon that it clearly is. Of course, as you point out, other people contribute to it.

But if I were a Windows user, I certainly would not support and use DHH’s baby on Windows. People should understand that making wild, rabid, insulting remarks about (in this case Windows users but in principle any group of people) has consequences. DHH gets a lot of positive mileage out of his idiosyncrasies and his rabid fan-boy attitude; but I am shocked and surprised at his venom towards Windows users. I don’t see why he goes out of his way to insult Windows users. I also don’t see why a Windows using developer, in particular, would support and use a product made, promoted and fronted by a leader who calls Windows using developers stupid.

Do you?

Posted on July 15, 2006 11:38 AM | #

24. Jeff Croft said:

Re: Hosting: The same thing I said about hiring applies to hosting, too. Who cares if there are 5000 hosting companies that provide PHP support, 100 that provides Rails support, and 50 that provide Django support? How many hosting services do you need? One. That’s all.

Re: Rails at Google: I think it’s interesting that Jason says Rails is picking up steam at Google, since Django is also in use at Google. Clearly that company is taking the approach of “use the best tool for the job” and “let our programmers use what woks best for them.” And that still seems like the best approach to me.

Re: Django maturity and perception: Since you seemed somewhat concerned about the maturity (and long-term viability?) of Django, I’ll point out as well, that Django apps are just Python programs. When you write code for Django, you’re writing Python. If Django dies, you’ve still got Python code that can be re-purposed to TurboGears or another Python-based framework without a lot less effort than writing your app all over again. Although i’ve never used Rails, my understanding is that in order to use it, you don’t really learn Ruby, you learn Rails (Rails being somewhat of a domain-specific language atop Ruby). If that’s accurate, it would concern me a bit. If Rails were to go away, or go in a direction you don’t like, you’d be stuck with piles of Rails code that can’t be easily ported to another framework. Since Python has such a huge user base, and there are handful of good frameworks other than Django written in Python, there’s a little more choice. In the end, though, this is probably a bit of a moot point, because I don’t think Rails or Django are going anywhere.

I guess my personal perception problem with Rails (and a perception is all it is, I’ve never actually used the thing) is that I perceive Ruby to be an irrelevant language outside of Rails. I perceive Rails somewhat as a beautiful house built in the middle of nowhere. It’s a great house, and if you never need to go anywhere else, it’s fine. But it seems like as soon as you try to step out of that Rails fence, you’d be in trouble. Python’s much larger community means there are thousands of pre-made libraries and classes to take advantage of, more people available for support, more books on the topic, and more flexibility if you ever decide to leave Django.

Re: One Love: One thing I definitely should have said earlier but didn’t is simply that both Rails and Django are great frameworks, and you’ll be very well-suited to pick either one. Python and Ruby are definitely both beautiful languages that have a lot more in common than either camp is usually willing to admit. Most any Ruby programmer, if you catch them in a moment of honestly, will tell you that if Ruby disappeared tomorrow, they’d probably use Python. And vice-versa. Likewise, I’ve heard several Rails people say that if Rails didn’t exist, they’d probably be using Django (it seems like I head DHH say this somewhere, but don’t quote me on that). And I can tell you for sure that there are several high-profile people in the Django community (including some of the lead developers) that definitely have an affinity for Rails and would probably be using it if Django didn’t exist.

I guess the bottom line is that it’s fine for the two languages and two frameworks to enjoy a friendly rivalry and to debate the differences between them – but let’s do remember that in the end they’re a lot more alike than they are different, and both are trying to solve the same problem (making web apps stupidly fast and easy to create) in mostly similar ways.

And both are doing quite an admirable job, to boot.

Posted on July 15, 2006 01:01 PM | #

26. Jeff Croft said:

Steven-

I doubt Blur Flavor wants to use a web application framework because it’s “cool.” I would image they want to use one because it makes web development faster and easier, which makes them better able to meet their client’s needs, which gets them more clients, which makes them more money. Just a hunch.

But I do agree with your advice – using any technology for a mission critical site before you understand it is a bad idea.

Posted on July 15, 2006 02:29 PM | #

28. Keith said:

Steven - Jeff is right on. Without getting into too many details, our problem is this:

Most of our clients need some sort of CMS or Community Server or what-have-you publishing tool. If they already have one we’ve got to learn it, meaning we’re learning something new every time we turn around. Most of the time most of this knowledge is thrown away.

If not we’ve got to recommend something. Most exisiting tools suck ass or we don’t know ‘em. We sure as heck don’t own them. So we generally recommend something like Movable Type (for a CMS) beacuse it’s relatively cheap and most of us know how to hack it. Not at all ideal, but it works.

Basically we already look like idiots, at least this way we have some sort of say and or control over the outcome. I don’t like relying on someone elses stuff. Call me a control freak.

As well, experience tells me that a CMS (for example) that’s a really great fit would be one that is truly customized to the people using it. My goal is to find a framework that would best facilitate that.

What we’d like to have is a framework on which we can build our own tools. Something we can sort of “own.” Things we like, know how to use, feel comfortable recommending, know we can extend and have the resources to do that, etc. This then means we can save our clients time and money, get more work, look like overachievers, etc.

Our business model is focused on being the best possible value we can buy to our clients while providing A+ service, flexiblity, etc. A framework we like, understand and can quickly turn our ideas and designs into reality, is something we’re really excited about.

Also, if we build up knowledge doing this we can branch out and diversify our business model. We’ve got lots of great and surprising as it might sound unique ideas (not another to-do list here!) and we want to build experience so that we can realize those ideas.

It’s the same exact reason why I jumped on Web Standards WAY early on. I saw a way to save time, money, effort and at the same time do some really great work. If you spend all your time banging your head trying to implement your ideas, pretty soon you’ll give up and the ideas will stop coming. That’s simply not ok in my book.

Cool has nothing to do with it. Frankly the whole concept of “cool” or “rockstar” or “trendy” when it comes to what I do for a living really bothers me. It’s a job. I love it, but I don’t see it as cool.

Cool would be snowboarding for a living…

Posted on July 15, 2006 04:26 PM | #

30. Matt Croydon said:

Keith,

As a guy who writes Django apps for a living I’ve got to say that I’ve been blown away with what Jeff and Nathan have accomplished in so short a time.

Sure Jeff’s programming questions get answered quickly and he’s had a little help here and there but he can definitely produce django-powered sites better than I can turn a photoshop comp in to HTML/CSS.

From a designer’s point of view I think you’ll absolutely fall in love with Django’s template system. Definitely check it out if you haven’t already.

I’m obviously a little biased towards Django but I don’t think you can go wrong whichever way you go. There are lots of places to go if you hit a brick wall with either framework: #django and #RubyOnRails on irc.freenode.net, there are online docs and mailing lists that are quite helpful.

Posted on July 15, 2006 05:23 PM | #

32. Brian Fling said:

To tack on to Keith’s original “maturity” comment, a big problem we’ve discovered is there is zero Django developers in Seattle (trust me, we’ve looked everywhere. And we haven’t had much luck looking outside of Seattle either). Whereas with Rails we are finding a ton.

Regardless of how long both the frameworks have been around, the adoption rate and speed in which developers go from apprentice to master just don’t seem to compare.

As Keith mentioned, we’re not going to be a dev shop, so ability to find a few strong resources in the chosen framework to help us achieve our goals is one of the biggest considerations right now.

What is appealing to us about Django is the flexibility to create powerful apps focused on publishing, quickly and easily. We’ve seen teams with fairly small developer to designer ratios do pretty incredible things.

Rails on the other hand seems to require quite a few more resources to keep it afloat. We’ve seen incredible things come from this camp as well, but with much higher developer to designer ratios.

Keeping this ratio reasonable is pretty important and our clients as it effects our overhead, hence client costs.

Posted on July 15, 2006 05:32 PM | #

34. James Bennett said:

It is easier these days to find Rails developers than Django developers.

But your problem is that you want to find a good developer, and good developers are damned hard to find regardless of the platform you want them to work on. So, really, you’re back to both platforms being about even.

You could argue that Django is likely to be a more fruitful source of quality developers, because the Python community as a whole is orders of magnitude larger than the Ruby community and includes tons and tons of good programmers who could easily learn Django, whereas the Ruby community is smaller and is probably three-quarters people who learned Ruby for Rails.

Of course, the counterpoint in Rails’ favor is that most Python folks aren’t web developers, and those who are have probably been terminally brain-damaged by Zope. Meanwhile, among people with experience developing for the Web, Rails is enjoying huge gains.

But, then, most of them have been terminally brain-damaged by PHP or (worse) Java.

So, ultimately, it’s likely to be a crap shoot either way you go. I’d say the choice should be motivated by what you think you’re going to need; since you’ve indicated that lots of your clients are going to want CMS-style applications, Django might come out slightly ahead because of its strength in that area, but that may not be enough to sway things one way or the other.

About the best advice I can give you is to look up local Python and Ruby user groups, send out feelers and see what kind of people are available around you and willing to learn the appropriate framework if they don’t know their way around it already; it’s easier to find a good developer and ask him/her to learn something new than to pick something new (and both Rails and Django still are new, in the public eye) and find a good developer who knows it.

Posted on July 15, 2006 07:41 PM | #

36. Keith said:

Geof – Ok. Granted. But it’s still “cool.” ;0)

Posted on July 16, 2006 03:12 AM | #

38. Steven Woods said:

Hi all,

Jeff - I wasn’t meaning to be condescending when i said “cool” as I know that Keith etc know better than to jump headlong into something just to get on a bandwagon.

I was just making the point that it might be worth learning the software obsessively before having to support a plethora of angry clients running upon it!

No offence meant! :)

Posted on July 17, 2006 01:28 AM | #